If you want to watch a movie that will change your life, watch this one. It's a documentary on how animals are slaughtered narrated by Joaquin Phoenix. Disclaimer: Two possible side effects are nightmares and a lack of a desire to eat meat. It's after I watched this documentary over a year ago that I realized that the small pleasure I get from eating meat was not worth the pain I was putting these animals through.
My perspective actually isn’t much different than yours. We both believe that killing is bad, I just take it further. We both agree we shouldn’t kill humans for food and we actually both believe that some animals shouldn’t be killed for food, you know, the cute ones that we keep as pets (See Michael Vick). I just take it one step further because I don’t feel like things need to be cute to be able to live.
When I tell people why I eat meat, here are the objections that people usually give me:
Aren't they killed humanely?
Apparently this is how it happens usually: Once the animals are brought to the slaughterhouse, they are knocked unconscious with a 300 volt electric shock. Then they’re skinned and their major arteries are cut to finish the job and then yada, yada, yada… Big Mac! (Wikipedia). However, “Investigations by animal welfare and animal rights groups have indicated that a proportion of animals are being skinned or gutted while alive and apparently conscious.[5] There has also been criticism of the methods of transport of the animals, who are driven for hundreds of miles to slaughterhouses in conditions that often result in crush injuries and death en route.[6]” –Wikipedia. So often, the only pain the animals feel is from an electric shock. That is pretty good, but not good enough for me. If we killed humans or dogs with an electric shocker would it still be considered humane? I doubt it. Until we find a way to do it with absolutely no pain, I won’t even consider it being possibly humane. And not all of them get the luxury of getting the shock because a) They don’t work all the time on the first try and b) it’s much cheaper to use a knife. Furthermore, the life before they’re slaughtered sucks, too (see cramped living spaces and deadly ride to slaughter house).
But they taste so good.
Yes, we should all just do what feels good regardless of the negative consequences. That’s why I kill people who annoy me and steal stuff when I want it.
But where do you get your protein?
You can be healthy eating meat and not eating meat. One downside on not eating meat is that you don’t get the protein you need, but this can be supplemented with other stuff easily. There are actually many people who are vegetarian solely for health reasons. Apparently, it’s a good way to loose wait. To be honest though, I have not noticed a difference in my health since I stopped eating meat.
My church doesn't say it's wrong to eat meat.
I’m going to assume that you’re LDS. I’d love it if you weren’t because I’d love to have diverse viewers with different perspectives, but more likely than not, you are. This is a good one. It's one I had to resolve, too. The church hasn't taken an official stance and is kind of ambiguous about meat eating. The church currently owns many plots of land where cows are raised and eventually slaughtered. Why do they do this? In their defense, you can back it up with some scriptures. The scriptures are replete with animal sacrifices and meat eating, many of which was ordered by God. So apparently God says the meat is for us to eat. This was a tough one for me. This is what I’ll say about it. For most of civilizations in society meat has been necessary to survival, especially back then. Therefore these scriptures applied back then. However, fortunately we line in a time where I do not have to eat meat to survive.
The church also seems to have some pro-vegetarianism in it, too. One of the most recent revelations on the subject was given by Joseph Smith in the Word of Wisdom, in which he states to “eat meat sparingly,” and “only in times of winter or famine”. What I get from that is to only eat it when you need to, which for me, and probably you, is never. The 3rd prophet of our church was, reportedly, a vegetarian. However, I think it was more for health reasons than moral. Joseph Smith once got mad at members for killing a snake (I know it happened, but I can’t remember where I read it). What the church has done or said about meat eating hasn’t really been a reason for me to not eat meat, but hasn’t been a reason for me to do it, either.
My perspective actually isn’t much different than yours. We both believe that killing is bad, I just take it further. We both agree we shouldn’t kill humans for food and we actually both believe that some animals shouldn’t be killed for food, you know, the cute ones that we keep as pets (See Michael Vick). I just take it one step further because I don’t feel like things need to be cute to be able to live.
When I tell people why I eat meat, here are the objections that people usually give me:
Aren't they killed humanely?
Apparently this is how it happens usually: Once the animals are brought to the slaughterhouse, they are knocked unconscious with a 300 volt electric shock. Then they’re skinned and their major arteries are cut to finish the job and then yada, yada, yada… Big Mac! (Wikipedia). However, “Investigations by animal welfare and animal rights groups have indicated that a proportion of animals are being skinned or gutted while alive and apparently conscious.[5] There has also been criticism of the methods of transport of the animals, who are driven for hundreds of miles to slaughterhouses in conditions that often result in crush injuries and death en route.[6]” –Wikipedia. So often, the only pain the animals feel is from an electric shock. That is pretty good, but not good enough for me. If we killed humans or dogs with an electric shocker would it still be considered humane? I doubt it. Until we find a way to do it with absolutely no pain, I won’t even consider it being possibly humane. And not all of them get the luxury of getting the shock because a) They don’t work all the time on the first try and b) it’s much cheaper to use a knife. Furthermore, the life before they’re slaughtered sucks, too (see cramped living spaces and deadly ride to slaughter house).
But they taste so good.
Yes, we should all just do what feels good regardless of the negative consequences. That’s why I kill people who annoy me and steal stuff when I want it.
But where do you get your protein?
You can be healthy eating meat and not eating meat. One downside on not eating meat is that you don’t get the protein you need, but this can be supplemented with other stuff easily. There are actually many people who are vegetarian solely for health reasons. Apparently, it’s a good way to loose wait. To be honest though, I have not noticed a difference in my health since I stopped eating meat.
My church doesn't say it's wrong to eat meat.
I’m going to assume that you’re LDS. I’d love it if you weren’t because I’d love to have diverse viewers with different perspectives, but more likely than not, you are. This is a good one. It's one I had to resolve, too. The church hasn't taken an official stance and is kind of ambiguous about meat eating. The church currently owns many plots of land where cows are raised and eventually slaughtered. Why do they do this? In their defense, you can back it up with some scriptures. The scriptures are replete with animal sacrifices and meat eating, many of which was ordered by God. So apparently God says the meat is for us to eat. This was a tough one for me. This is what I’ll say about it. For most of civilizations in society meat has been necessary to survival, especially back then. Therefore these scriptures applied back then. However, fortunately we line in a time where I do not have to eat meat to survive.
The church also seems to have some pro-vegetarianism in it, too. One of the most recent revelations on the subject was given by Joseph Smith in the Word of Wisdom, in which he states to “eat meat sparingly,” and “only in times of winter or famine”. What I get from that is to only eat it when you need to, which for me, and probably you, is never. The 3rd prophet of our church was, reportedly, a vegetarian. However, I think it was more for health reasons than moral. Joseph Smith once got mad at members for killing a snake (I know it happened, but I can’t remember where I read it). What the church has done or said about meat eating hasn’t really been a reason for me to not eat meat, but hasn’t been a reason for me to do it, either.
Not eating animals isn’t really going to do anything.
According to a vegetarian calculator I found on the internet, I’ve saved 194 animals. I’m sure that’s off, but a good rough estimate. I’ve also played a part in converting one of my friends to vegetarianism so you have to give me a few points for that, too.
It’s just a part of nature. Animals would kill us if they had the chance.
Yes, but other animals don’t have a frontal lobe which helps us reason. Saying something is alright because an animal does it is not something I’m willing to do.
Animals are stupider than us.
Yep, that’s why we eat handicapped people, too.
It’s just a part of nature. Animals would kill us if they had the chance.
Yes, but other animals don’t have a frontal lobe which helps us reason. Saying something is alright because an animal does it is not something I’m willing to do.
Animals are stupider than us.
Yep, that’s why we eat handicapped people, too.
If it were that bad, there'd be laws against it
There have been many laws in the past that we find undeniably wrong. Just a few examples: slavery and the Holocaust. I don’t think eating meat is the same as the extermination of a race or treating people as property but I can draw some similarities. At the time slavery was fine according to the law. These people were less than human and we could do what we wanted with them. I don’t doubt that the first supporters of abolition were looked to as weird crazies. All I’m saying is that doing something because society says it’s ok to do is probably not the best way to live.
This is what I’ve decided to do: I don’t buy meat. If someone serves it, I will eat it though (not because it’s right, but because I’m a poor vegetarian). Now the question is: What are you going to do? Below are what some of you might be feeling and my reaction to your feelings:
This is what I’ve decided to do: I don’t buy meat. If someone serves it, I will eat it though (not because it’s right, but because I’m a poor vegetarian). Now the question is: What are you going to do? Below are what some of you might be feeling and my reaction to your feelings:
I disagree with you
Great! Now you can earn some Jacob Points. Tell me why. I’d love a reason to be able to eat meat again with a clear conscience.
I appreciate that you’ve spent the time to create a reasonably intelligent post about this, but vegetarianism is just not for me.
Great, I'm not better than you because I don't eat meat. I really don't want to come off as condescending. I'm sure you make up for your eating meat by doing a lot of other good things. There are probably a lot of other things that you’re doing better than me at. To be honest, I’m a bad vegetarian. I usually eat meat if it’s served to me. I still buy leather shoes and belts and if I was really good, I wouldn’t be eating animals products at all like eggs, milk, or cheese (by the way, that’s called being a vegan).
I’m undecided
Here’s something to think about: Worst case scenario if you eat meat is that it turns out it’s immoral, you have the blood of thousands of innocents beings on your hands (you fail). Worst case scenario if you don’t eat meat is that it turns out there was nothing wrong with it. Ok, so you missed out on eating meat when you didn’t need to, but you were probably healthier because of it anyways (you’re still good).
Great, I'm not better than you because I don't eat meat. I really don't want to come off as condescending. I'm sure you make up for your eating meat by doing a lot of other good things. There are probably a lot of other things that you’re doing better than me at. To be honest, I’m a bad vegetarian. I usually eat meat if it’s served to me. I still buy leather shoes and belts and if I was really good, I wouldn’t be eating animals products at all like eggs, milk, or cheese (by the way, that’s called being a vegan).
I’m undecided
Here’s something to think about: Worst case scenario if you eat meat is that it turns out it’s immoral, you have the blood of thousands of innocents beings on your hands (you fail). Worst case scenario if you don’t eat meat is that it turns out there was nothing wrong with it. Ok, so you missed out on eating meat when you didn’t need to, but you were probably healthier because of it anyways (you’re still good).
I agree with you, I just don’t know if I want to give up eating meat.
Congratulations, you passed the good person test. You don’t have to abstain from meat to not support slaughtering animals. Thomas Jefferson was against slavery and had a role in ending it, but he still owned them. Because we live in a time when it’s not socially accepted to not eat meat, it’s hard to do. But you can do other things. Talk to people about it. When you get the chance, vote or choose leaders that help animal rights.
Ok, I don’t want to eat meat
Congratulations, you pass the great person test. There aren’t a lot of things helping you out. There aren’t any laws prohibiting meat eating and most people do it. You have an interesting road ahead of you. The worse part for me isn’t that I can’t eat meat, but that when you tell people they think you’re a crazy environmentalist tree hugger hippie. To be honest, not eating meat isn’t that hard for me. When meat is being served, there are usually other options available anyways. It’s take a pretty cold person to do what Michael Vick did to those dogs. However, indifference can provide the same outcomes. The Holocaust didn’t happen because the world is full of evil cold-hearted people. No, it had one cold-hearted and a million indifferent people. People who didn’t question whether what they were doing was right. People who were too busy looking at there own lives to look at those other people sharing this world for us. So thank you for caring. Me and thousands of animals thank you.
Dear Sam, here is a good one. You happy?
14 comments:
Alright Jacob... (Ps I love all of your new polls)
I went to institute last week and we were talking about The Law of Consecration. Something interesting our teacher pointed out was that 5% of the worlds population eats 40% of the worlds food.
That five percent is America.
Europe, which is 13% of the worlds population ate 30% of the Worlds food.
This was a profound thought for me and on the way home from institute I was talking about it with some of the people in my Ward.
America has a facination with meat. We eat it with everything. If we eat one cow, think how much food that COW had to eat to get as big as it did. All of that food that could have been fed to others. So maybe it is just our choice in food?
I'm not really sure if any of that makes sense. But I disagree to a point. Meat is good in moderation. However, I think America eats meat a bit too much.
Candy, I agree with you and it doesn't surprise me. Everyone's obese in America and there has to be a reason why.
Jacob, I really like your blog! You've brought up some really interesting points I've never really taken time to consider before. I'm not sure yet to what extent I agree with your perspective but I appreciate the logic you have provided to support it. I think I would like to talk with you a little more about this in person.
Also, I may have found a mistake in your spelling. While discussing the LDS perspective you wrote "However, fortunately we line in a time where I do not have to eat meat to survive."
Yay, Jacob Points for me!!
ok bac face,
before i read this i had high expectations, antyhing that keeps me up all night better be better than sleep.
you passed.
Anything I eat i usually do because i enjoy the effect it has on the health of my body. Your quest for animal rights has been good for my perspective,Im slowly realizing more than my health should be observed. I have to read through the post again, watch the video, and then ill get back to you.
BY THE WAY, JACOB WAS UP ALL NIGHT WRITING PARTS OF THIS.
jacob
i didn't even know you had a blog! sheesh, all those times running into you on cougar campus and never a word of "visit my blog yadda yadda yadda." i'm glad we can be blogging buddies.
Steak is my favorite food. I don't eat it every meal or hardly even once a month but when I do have it I am in Heaven. Like on a cloud of meaty bliss. I also enjoy chicken and pork. (now I am getting hungry).
I agree that we should eat meat sparingly and that slaughtering should be more humane. I think both of those points are common sense. You should do some research on organizations we can support or join in regards to supporting humane slaugher.
"It’s take a pretty cold person to do what Michael Vick did to those dogs" i think you mean It takes....
"Apparently, it’s a good way to loose wait." no i dont think it is. maybe WEIGHT though...
..."animal rights groups have indicated that a proportion of animals are..." portion not proportion.
congrats on a very intelligent and interesting post. i think you have convinced me. but, i dont think im gonna completely do away with meat, im just gonna stop eating it like every meal.
Kirsten, I think you have a really good point. A lot of good can be done by just not eating at the places that are the most inhumane or just eating less meat. I'm kind of moving in that direction myself, actually. I'll post a list sometime.
Scott, you just earned a hecka lot of Jacob Points. Nice work.
This issue sparks a whole host of ethical questions and it truly is hard to choose one to address. Although part of me wants to start a new conversation on vegetarianism, I’ve decided to respond to an issue directly brought up in your post for the sake of Jacob Points. You point out a rationalization for eating meat is that “animals are stupider than us” and your defense is “Yep, that’s why we eat handicapped people too.” I disagree with your response.
First off, are you suggesting that handicapped people are “stupider” than the rest of the human race? You better watch yourself or you might just have a gang of paraplegics trying to take you out.
I feel that your statements offer conflicting views, that our intelligence or supremacy over animals shouldn’t matter, then saying “I don’t think eating meat is the same as the extermination of a race or treating people as property but I can draw some similarities.” The argument that “Animals are stupider than us” is extremely valid and should play a role in the way we treat animals. Would you feel worse about killing an ant or a cow? A fish or a pig? A cow or a human? The intelligence factor really does hold a stronger argument than you give credit.
You can’t really compare someone with a severe mental handicap to an animal. You have to hold some sanctity for the superiority of the human race. People with severe mental handicaps aren’t any less human, they’re just ill. Their potential is just as high as all of ours, which isn’t the case for animals. I don’t believe humans are equal to animals. I am specist.
For the record, I am also a poor vegetarian and believe it’s morally wrong to eat meat when it’s not necessary.
Bravo Samuel! You get 6 Jacob points and they were well deserved. Three points for disagreeing with me, two points for pointing out that I used handicapped, when I really meant mentally handicapped, and an additional point for putting the image of a gang of people in wheelchairs chasing me in my head.
And interesting find, but I respectfully disagree. What I said was not contradictory. I said that humans don't deserve the right to live any more than animals just because they're smarter. I still stand by that. To answer your questions: I wouldn’t kill a fish over a pig, even though the pig’s smarter. I would kill an ant over a cow, but not because cows are smarter. I’d do it because I’m pretty sure bugs don’t feel pain (That’s what my cousin told me and when I looked it up on the internet, that was the general consensus. But I wasn’t sure and it was a moral dilemma I had to deal with while I was selling pest control). But now let me ask you a question Mr. Smarty-pants: Following your logic, if really intelligent aliens decided to kill the human race, you’d be fine with it? You’d just sit there and let them do it? After all, they are smarter.
But I also said that there was a difference between the extermination of a human race and the extermination of animals. I still stand by it. To answer your last question, if I had to choose whether to let a cow die or a human die, I’d let the cow die in a heartbeat. So, if the difference wasn’t that we are more intelligent, what is it? The best answer I can give you is that it’s because I belong to the human race. I think there’s something in our DNA that says when you’re in a group you think that group is the best. It’s why people in the Navy think the Navy’s better than the Army and vice versa. It’s why people that play softball think they’re better than people that play basketball and vice versa. It’s why people who go to Timpview High School think they’re better than people that go to Provo High School and vice versa. And I think it’s why I’d kill the cow, too. It doesn’t make any sense, but I believe that I’d let the cow die so strongly that it must be something in my DNA. Here’s my theory: it’s because we’re more likely to survive if the group we belong to does well. So, over the years we’ve evolved into people that care about how the group that we belong to does.
But here’s the thing, it doesn’t make sense to me. There’s no logic that I can think of that says that that cow deserves to live less than I do. So, it would be more of an emotional decision, than logical. This probably has application to our logic vs. emotion discussion earlier. I remember saying that we should always make decisions on logic, not emotion. In this case, however, I would undoubtedly choose the latter. I guess, as much as it disgusts me, I’m a specist too.
Nice post. I found your blog through your sister's (Kirsten) but I can't remember how I found hers.
Anyway. I guess I pass as a "good person." Once I tried to be a vegetarian but my mom kept serving me meat. Yum. Oh, and my favorite meal is steak, also.
Then a couple weeks ago she got five baby chicks in the mail to keep as pets. She keeps serving us chicken for dinner. It's awkward. And weird.
My question:
Do humans have a greater right to live than other animals? If so, would beings of much greater intelligence and perception hold that same right over humans?
June 21, 2008
Sally Haslanger on June 26, 2008
Good questions! I've been a vegetarian for 38 years and believe that humans should not kill animals for food, clothing or sport. One way to think about this is to ask what it is that makes life valuable. Some think that life itself is valuable, but that isn't plausible given that plants are alive and it doesn't seem to be morally wrong to weed your garden.
Another possibility is that what makes life valuable is sentience. If that's true, then sentient animals (and not plants) would have a moral claim on us, insofar as we have a duty to protect what is valuable. (Though one needs to ask here: what is our duty to protect what is valuable? How far does that duty extend? Are there different sorts of value, some of which have a greater claim on us than others?)
Even if sentience is valuable, however, some argue that humans have capacities that are more valuable still, such as the ability to reason, to value things, to create systems of norms, even morality itself. A challenge arises here, however, since most people would argue that human beings have equal moral standing, but of course they aren't equal in their abilities to reason, or as you mention, in their intelligence. So what gives humans their special value must be something that humans, qua humans, have, such as being of a kind that has a potential to reason, value, and such. Otherwise, we would have a lesser duty to protect infants, the developmentally disabled, the brain injured, etc. The idea is that this potential doesn't come in degrees, but comes with being a member of a certain kind, the human kind, and possibly kinds of more advanced rational, valuing beings we haven't met yet. If what makes life (most) valuable is this capacity, however, then more advanced beings wouldn't have a greater right to live because they would share this valuable capacity with us.
Even if we allow that humans are more valuable than animals, however, it doesn't follow that humans have a right to kill animals to eat them or wear their skin, or torture them in order to pursue knowledge for its own sake. As long as we grant that sentience is valuable, we may have a duty to protect animals from unnecessary pain and suffering. To the extent that we can argue that animals have interests (e.g., not to be killed, to live a life appropriate to their species), it is plausible that they have a moral claim on us to respect those interests. These are just the first moves in the discussion, however, since many are keen to defend human killing of animals as morally permissible. Michael Pollan has an essay, "An Animal's Place" in the New York Times, Nov. 10, 2002 that is worth reading as a next step.
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